AndiS 🌞🍷🇪🇺 reshared this.
Exciting announcement: @bleeptrack and I will create a 2.0 version of our open-source Git learning game https://ohmygit.org! 🎉
For the first time, you'll be able to play the game directly in your browser, using a *real Git* in a tiny Linux VM!
And for people whose first language isn't English, the game will come with other language versions!
Thanks to the @PrototypeFund for funding these often-requested features!
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hubertba, Mazzo, Verwalter Tom :damnified: and AndiS 🌞🍷🇪🇺 reshared this.
Klaudia (aka jinxx) reshared this.
Are you curious how Git works under the hood?
Check out the first technical prototype of Oh My Git 2.0:
✨ https://ohmygit.blinry.org ✨
It lets you try all commands of a real Git in a Linux VM *directly in your browser*, and shows you what they do internally!
Note that this is aimed at people who already know a bit about Git and the command line. We will also build a "from scratch" introduction later!
Fun things to try:
- Create a few new blobs from scratch!
- Create a commit without using "git commit"!
- Make a merge that results in a conflict. How is that state represented internally?
rixx reshared this.
Also, @bleeptrack and I are looking for a new round of beta testers!
⭐ Like this toot to become one! :D
We might reach out sometime in the next months, and schedule a ~60 minute beta test with you! That really helps us make the game better! Thanks a lot! 🙏
To prepare, we'd also be curious what your current relationship with Git is – feel free to reply to this post! Are you confused by any part? Or do you sometimes teach it to others? What would our game need to do to be useful to you?
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@praetor I remember early Web design guides that complained about the limitations of HTML that made it difficult to control the user's experience.
Preventing people from controlling the user's experience was part of the point.
I remember the 90s, how word processor formats were, by design, incompatible. SGML was invented for archivists, to allow the creation of documents that were free of vendor lock-in and obsolescence. HTML was derived from that.
☑️✅ cybercow ✅☑️ reshared this.
AndiS 🌞🍷🇪🇺 reshared this.
Discord being down is a good time to remind everyone that information should be in forums or wikis, not channels on Discord servers that can't be searched easily, aren't indexed by web search engines, require you to join a chatroom, and can disappear at any time because server can just be deleted.
Bring back websites and forums, stop putting all the content on the internet inside walled gardens controlled by big tech companies
Edit: my post said "information" and is about finding answers to questions, requesting help, finding info and tutorials and other informational content. It's not about saying that your chat with your friends should be made public, why am I getting so many bad faith replies lol. Forums are an objectively better way for people to find those kinds of things and for info to be available to anyone who searches for it.
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1/6: #FakeNews, Angst und #QAnon
2/6: #Reptiloide, #Aliens und Kontakte
3/6: #Roswell, #UFOAkten und #Reichsflugscheiben
4/6: #Geheimbünde, #Illuminaten und Neue #Weltordnung
5/6: #Klimalüge, #Pandemie und #5G
6/6: #Reichsbürger, #NeueRechte und Radikalisierung
Alle sechs Teile sind jeweils 44 Minuten lang. Verfügbar bis 25.09.2025.
https://www.zdf.de/dokumentation/zdfinfo-doku/verschwoerungen-die-wahrheit-der-anderen-100.html
Verschwörungen
Die sechsteilige Doku-Reihe "Verschwörungen - Die Wahrheit der Anderen" begibt sich in das abgründige Paralleluniversum von Verschwörungserzählungen.Zweites Deutsches Fernsehen
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So wait building all these "secure" chat apps on a browser engine packaged in a thin layer of UI, with its insane number of dependencies and the gigantic, immense attack surface that this entails, was somehow a bad idea?
Who knew! Who could have foreseen this! Shocking, really.
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Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦 reshared this.
You are still vulnerable to the WebP exploits, by the way
Software distribution is broken without maintenance on scalelauren n. liberda
@agturcz jeebus, no, I beg of you.
(I don't actually know internals of either well enough. Just in my Limited Experience I've had less issues with flatpak than snap)
@agturcz @selfisekai
@viq look, if I wanted or needed a reasonably effective level of compartmentalization, I would be running QubesOS.
Which I am in fact running.
@agturcz @selfisekai
@viq yeah, I moved my whole system (apart from dom0 obviously) to Debian. Could not be happier. No snaps, no flatpaks, everything just works.
I guess unstable could have new enough packages 🤔
@agturcz @selfisekai
@viq yeah, all depends on the specific needs and the threat model. I am fine with Debian Stable.
@agturcz this is the way.
In theory flatpak apps are built on base platform images that are receiving updates, components that are in the base platform image are supposed to be receiving updates.
It happens that webp (and vpx) are common enough they're in the base image.
So any application built against a platform image including that patch will get the update.
I do wish it was easier to tell which platform version included what updates though.
For me to figure out if the 3rd party zoom flatpak was updated, I had to do "flatpak info us.zoom.Zoom" to find the platform version.
Then go to the gitlab site hosting the freedesktop platform, go looking around in the branches for the version used by the flatpak 22.08, and check to see if there's a patch for the webp vulnerability.
And in this case yes it's been patched.
patches/libwebp · release/22.08 · freedesktop-sdk / freedesktop-sdk · GitLab
A minimal Linux runtimeGitLab
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦 reshared this.
electron apps are popular not because they're so good, but because the alternatives are so bad. find me better alternatives that do not require learning a whole fucking new paradigm of doing things, and i shall stop using the few electron apps i'm using now imediately.
(ditto for flatpak; and no, qubesos is not an alternative.)
@mawhrin the alternatives are so bad because developers cannot be arsed to write in something that is not JavaScript.
So anything that is not Electron gets way less resources and way fewer developers.
By pointing this out I am attempting to convince developers to maybe invest the time to write in something sane, so that these "alternatives" improve to a point where users can use them. I am not trying to convince you as a user to use an alternative that does not exist. 🤷♀️
@mawhrin or perhaps it's time to recognize that choice of the underlying technology has consequences and stop pretending "fast development" is the only metric to measure how good a given ecosystem is.
Otherwise we will keep having these absolute nightmares of security issues that will then go on haunting us for years — I am going to bet there's going to be a major compromise in a couple of years that starts with this very WebP vuln exploited in an unupdated Electron app.
@mirth @mawhrin that argument itself feels rather abstract.
How do you feel concretely about the web as a universal application platform? Both today and where it’s heading?
I’m largely all in on the death of the operating system (as an application platform) in the medium term just to put my cards on the table. WASI / WASM as universal language compile targets is another angle to this in my mind.
I’m in no small part making this argument from a security perspective too where we inevitably need some kind of universal application sandbox in order to get to a reasonably secure place and they are the only meaningful games in town right now and developers largely seem to like them, governments will probably roll out cyber security legislation requiring that those kinds of requirements in more and more environments and it’s just where the markets will inevitably land.
I don’t see how the current situation is tenable too much longer in more and more industries.
@mdh
> How do you feel concretely about the web as a universal application platform?
Roughly that's how:
https://drewdevault.com/2020/03/18/Reckless-limitless-scope.html
The Web is bloated beyond belief; writing a new browser is nigh-impossible. If we go all-in on browsers, we get the same shitty OSes but with another layer of abstraction and additional gigantic attack surface. With only 2 independent implementations.
Chrome just had *another* critical bug, exploited in the wild, CVE-2023-5217.
@mdh you want security? Make it auditable. Make it as simple as possible. Go LANGSEC. Stop weird machines!
http://langsec.org/occupy/
Browsers are the opposite of all of that.
Moving the problem to a yet higher layer of abstraction won't help — same problems will crop up, same mistakes will be made, but everything will just work slower.
And even on that absurdly high abstraction level you get to be affected by low-level hardware stuff like Rowhammer, Meltdown/Spectre, GPU.zip.
@mirth @mawhrin I’m trying to be good faith here and not be snarky but correct me if I got this wrong:
- browsers are less safe as application platforms than an operating system?
- browsers are more complicated than an operating system?
- browsers have more vulnerabilities than an operating system?
To me all three of those arguments don’t sound right at all but I assume I’m missing something here too
@mdh this whole thread is in the context of two critical (one CVSS 10.0, one unclear yet but presumably close) vulnerabilities in Chrome, being exploited in the wild for targeted malware infections, and affecting a bunch of Electron apps as well.
I invite you to read the piece I linked to in my toot, and then come back and tell me what you think about browser complexity vs. operating system complexity.
@mdh but to offer some actual answers:
I don't think browsers are necessarily more complex than a full operating system, but I do think that the complexity is *largely misplaced* and stems in no small part from the inner-platform effect.
Browsers were a neat abstraction and then feature creep kicked in and now they need to bend over backwards to provide more and more OS-like facilities (sockets, access to certain USB devices, etc).
@mdh worse, browser's complexity and the complexity of all Web APIs they implement (and that are required by software built on top of them) means they are hard-to-impossible to do a new independent implementation.
This means we effectively end up in a monoculture, and monocultures are prone to be vulnerable. As the whole WebP kerfuffle shows.
So instead of betting the farm on Google-controlled monoculture in a higher abstraction layer, it seems to me better idea to try fix stuff in the lower.
sandboxing is the most practical and effective solutions I think we have right now.
Operating system designs in use today are many decades behind where the research is at and to make the same argument you have for the browser… how many new ones do you see of those?
Fuchsia is the only real one I’m aware of.
@mdh QubesOS and GNU/Hurd and SpectrumOS are also interesting approaches, at different levels of usefulness obviously.
But my point is: instead of claiming "moving to web will fix this", we need to *actually* fix this, and to fix this we need to fix it at the OS level. Otherwise we're basically slapping lipstick on a pig and pretending it's pretty.
So I want *more research* and *more resources* to go into that, instead of into increasingly breaking the abstraction that the browser used to be…
I guess I’m with you in a theoretical sense.. I wish we weren’t in the state we are in, I wish we tackled this many years ago when we decided to network the entire world together but time is clearly a factor here.
What timeline do you have in mind here?
What looks good to you in the next five years?
I guess these are the constraints I had in mind here, those things can happen as well and I think largely are but if you look at probably the one main operating system that did go more or less all in on the web and sandboxing (ChromeOS) I would say for the vast vast vast majority of organisations out there today they would be an infinitely better position if they could run their workloads in a browser that ran inside of ChromeOS. Entire classes of problems would cease to exist
@mdh and entire classes of problems would just move to a different layer. Instead of Microsoft monopoly they would end up in Google monopoly.
There are no easy answers. I am not offering a roadmap to fix all of this.
I am merely ranting that we're all doing it wrong and it will all end in tears — so that when it inevitably does, we won't get to claim we didn't know. 🤷♀️
ok but I mean any of us can point out the problems or imagine utopian alternatives.
It’s one of the things I quite like about security. Shit is constantly on fire, you don’t have the tools you want but standing still isn’t an option. That’s fun to me and presumably you too.
How do you find the best bang for your buck right now but I think that’s where some of the confusion is coming from because I don’t think that was at all the conversation you were having but I’d be keen to hear your thoughts if you have some
just as it took a long way to get "there" with browsers. We could used this time and these resources to improve the OS instead, but we chose not to.
And that's the thing, it's our choices, it's the misaligned incentives, it's the short-term view, available resources, and so on and so forth. And none of this gets fixed unless people are shouting from the rooftops that shit is broken, yo.
So I shout from a rooftop.
@mirth @mawhrin I don’t even know if we are talking about the same thing here honestly.
Raw counts are a terrible data point but in the context of this particular conversation they do feel relevant to bring some data to it rather than an abstract argument.
https://www.cvedetails.com/top-50-products.php?year=2023
There is no way in hell you are convincing me operating systems are less complicated or more secure than a browser.
but they are not two different things in a vacuum. One runs on top of each other.
To have a secure in-browser platform you have to first have a reasonably secure OS underneath it — and so comparing raw numbers of vulns is not that useful, as many of the OS vulns will affect the "browser platform" as well.
GitHub - telegramdesktop/tdesktop: Telegram Desktop messaging app
Telegram Desktop messaging app. Contribute to telegramdesktop/tdesktop development by creating an account on GitHub.GitHub
@mirth indeed you're right I never thought about it this way — there are no alternatives to Electron and the Web!
Programmers writing desktop apps in any other framework have long passed away. Only Telegram exists as an example of such ancient technology, long forgotten and rightfully ridiculed.
🙄
@mirth you know, this is getting contentious and it's in no small part my fault. Sorry about that. I found the the "do you prefer Telegram's code" somewhat manipulative, and overreacted.
I don't know, I don't have an answer that will fit all use-cases. People can point out something is a problem even if they don't have a ready-made solution.
Somebody else might come up with one, if we stop treating Electron as unavoidable. We really don't need all that attack surface in most apps that use it.
@mirth but that's a bit (bear with me here) like saying 20 years ago, "I agree that climate change is a problem but there's just no widely available good alternatives to burning carbohydrates."
At some point we have to recognize shit is bad, and that maybe we need to invest the time and effort into *building* alternatives, and getting them to a point where they *are* widely available and good.
That's not going to happen by itself, especially if everyone chooses the path of least resistance.
@mirth but to not leave this without mentioning any alternative whatsoever…
I remember liking QML and QtQuick a lot when I played with writing some GUI apps. I really liked that it's declarative and has bindings for all sorts of languages (including Rust).
For a lot of apps that might be a good enough solution. QML+Rust might be a pretty great mix. And you'd get a way lighter programs, with way less attack surface and more manageable dependencies.
Actually this thread here has a relevant perspective: https://mastodon.social/@sarahjamielewis/111143867756307095
There is lots of discussion about Electron / webp and - as someone who would never ever use electron for anything remotely approaching a security sensitive context - I do think it misses the mark.Electron is bad because it shares an attack surface with the most attackable surface, but then extends it with all the functionality that was deliberately removed / never implemented because security.
(While giving developers very few tools to actually lock down that context in a meaningful way)
> Ultimately the biggest problem is there is little investment in cross-platform UI tooling that isn't coming from the the browser space.
Bam. There it is. That's basically my point, put in a better way.
@mirth if it's not "features disabled by default but you can enable them if you need to", then I am not interested.
People are lazy (this whole thread is about that), so if you start with a huge attack surface that the developers can trim down, most of it will never get trimmed down.
Start (like Deno!) with "default-locked-down" and give granular ability to enable features, and you've got something interesting.
@mirth at which point the only thing we need to run our Markdown text editor without frame drops is 64GiB of RAM, 16-core CPU, and two M.2 drives in RAID1.
That's okay, hardware is cheap and energy is plentiful!
is it true though? the java eclipse-based LDAP browser i'm using frequently is not less power hungry that vs code, has not seen a major upgrade in years, and can't handle tls1.3 properly (a bug known for three years!). and neither it nor the vs code, not even the javascript window manager and compositor is the primary resource consumer on my company-provided second-hand thinkpad – the browser is.
hell, the flatpak of electron-wrapped third party packaging of microsoft teams eats less resources than the in-browser teams.
these sure.
my point, probably badly conveyed, is not that electron is a good framework, but that it offers good enough portable results with minimal friction.
you can't get that in qt without writing c++ (you can argue for using python or other languages that have qt bindings and rich library resources, but that doesn't solve the problem of bundling runtime environments for these languages, which electron apps don't have).
and, security-wise, non-electron apps also need to handle their dependencies somehow. it's an old problem of third-party apps, and there is no easy solution to that.
also, i think you're overstating the resource usage in order to make a more compelling point.
> it offers good enough portable results with minimal friction.
Good enough by whose standards? Minimal friction for whom?
Answers: "developers', developers."
That's a problem, because as a user, Electron apps give me absolutely dismal performance.
And then we get stuff like these CVEs and I need to scramble to update each of these apps separately because apparently these libraries are embedded in them and OS updates don't help.
Far from "good enough", "minimal friction".
have you considered that you might not be a typical user of those applications? it's a typical failure of highly technical users: the inability to see that their experience is generally highly atypical.
for starters, you're using linux, and expect third party application to come in distribution packages.
@mawhrin I have, in fact, considered that.
The dismal performance and high resource usage is a pretty universal complaint about Electron apps. Including from very much "regular users".
The update thing? Sure, that's a bit more specific. But if you can cherry-pick and scope-down your claims to developers, why can't I cherry-pick and scope mine down to "linux users"?
Not to mention there's also quite a lot of non-techie Linux users, as much as you might find that surprising.
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦 reshared this.
the problem isn't javascript, the problem is that laying out UI sucks no matter what language you're doing it in.
all-code is terrible because its impossible to quickly iterate on since visualizing pixels is difficult, and that's still too often the assumed default.
JavaFX almost had something with FXML but mucked it up by just not doing any kind of sane defaults, so to get a UI going you had to specify a lot of stuff that if not the UI library, at least the editor could just be implicitly assuming. (Also it being Java means it had issues).
HTML/CSS/JS is simply the least annoying way to quickly get a UI going that you can quickly iterate on. Electron is just a bad solution to what can technically be solved with PWAs (it'd resolve their main resource issue which is spawning a chromium instance each time), but won't be because PWA is explicitly Google land for now. And nobody wants or should build on Google land except Google.
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦 reshared this.
agreed on a technical level, although I also dislike webp for other reasons.
namely the fact that it's got horrible compression, poor support outside browsers and finally the fact that Google has killed JPEG-XL as a web standard in favor of keeping webp around, since Google didn't invent JPEG-XL.
this bug in libwebp is imo pretty funny because I think that in terms of image format parsers, it couldn't have happened to a worse format.
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦 reshared this.
@glitch @mawhrin (the Google/JXL thing is even worse because Google was among the creators of JXL, just a different group. It was killed by internal power politics.)
As an aside, we should be fuzzing the reference JPEG-XL library *right now*. Being able to tell “yeah, this format doesn't dig a hole in your computer” would be good publicity now, especially with Apple getting behind the format (and maybe convince Mozilla to enable it in Firefox)
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦 reshared this.
https://thehackernews.com/2023/09/new-libwebp-vulnerability-under-active.html
Critical libwebp Vulnerability Under Active Exploitation - Gets Maximum CVSS Score
Libwebp image library under attack! A new CVE-2023-5129 has emerged, scoring a maximum 10.0 on CVSS. Get the details nowThe Hacker News
A joke in meme form.
Srsly though, the Matasano blog is long gone and I don't feel like dredging up things from the Wayback Machine right now either, but I swear @tqbf has harped upon similarly themed perils for an awfully long time now?
To abstract away even further: it's not just apps that bundle themselves as browsers (e.g. yuck at Signal Electron BS) that succumb to similar pitfalls.
VMs that have outdated toolchains with vulnerabilities, "containers" with similar challenges, etc.
Of course, there are also the software preservationists among others who may have valid reasons for keeping old (vulnerable) toolchains going, but as one colleague phrased it with regards to such precarious things which may occasionally be necessitated: "Not on a publicly routable network, behind at *least* three layers of firewalls."
I often think of this talk, about "The 30 million line problem."
The Thirty Million Line Problem
A historical argument for creating a stable instruction set architecture (ISA) for entire system-on-a-chip (SoC) packages.Please note that although it's neve...YouTube
Oh look another one:
https://todon.eu/@tek/111143668390262038
Are we having another webp vuln crisis?
New Chrome version yesterday fixing CVE-2023-5217, a heap buffer overflow in vp8 encoding in libvpx. libvpx is the VP8/VP9 implementation as part of the webm project
https://chromereleases.googleblog.com/2023/09/stable-channel-update-for-desktop_27.htmlStable Channel Update for Desktop
The Stable channel has been updated to 117.0.5938.132 for Windows, Mac and Linux, which will roll out over the coming days/weeks. A full lis...Chrome Releases
I don't even need to see whatever vuln goes to this to not feel a bit justified in my always-rant policy about Electron.
My big fear is that it is going to be just like html in your email: it's not necessary, it complicates more than it helps, and it's never going away :sadness:
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Chatkontrolle: EU-Ausschuss fordert von Innenkommissarin Aufklärung über Lobby-Verflechtungen – netzpolitik.org
Der Druck auf Ylva Johansson wächst. Nach den Recherchen mehrerer europäischer Zeitungen zu Lobby-Verflechtungen bei der Chatkontrolle fordert der Innenausschuss des Europäischen Parlaments jetzt Aufklärung.netzpolitik.org
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🦕🖥️ The Lear Siegler ADM-3A terminal (1976) looks like it's straight out of The Flintstones 😃 We received it 12 years ago from the Faculty of Mechanical Engineering, and it dates back to the times before the influential VT100 terminal.
#computermuseum #computerhistory #slovenia #ljubljana #softwareheritage #digitalheritage #nostalgia #nostalgie #nostalgi #retrocomputing #vintage #vintagecomputer #vintagecomputing #retro #europee #MundoRetro #computerterminal
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like this
Računalniški muzej and Paolo Amoroso like this.
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I'd rather say The Jetsons as The Flintstones were in the Stone Age (as we're in the IT Stone Age right now IMHO).
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Reminder that #RaspberryPi boasted about hiring a surveillance cop, then insulted their customers for raising ethical concerns: https://petapixel.com/2022/12/09/raspberry-pi-under-fire-by-creators-who-are-upset-it-hired-a-former-cop/
#RaspberrySpy
#RaspberryPi5 #Pi5
Raspberry Pi Under Fire by Creators Who Are Upset it Hired a Former Cop
Raspberry Pi users are upset the company hired a former police officer who used the products to covertly surveil targets.Jaron Schneider (PetaPixel)
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For Julian #Assange: an appeal launched by @Mediapart
Mediapart has launched an appeal for Julian Assange, in the form of an address to the President of the United States of America, Joe #Biden. It has already been joined by three other European media: Der Spiegel (Germany), Il Fatto Quotidiano (Italy) and InfoLibre (Spain).
Dear Mr. President of the United States of America, .../...
1/x
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We are journalists, and as such we have come to ask you to desist from committing an injustice against one of our own, Julian #Assange.
After thirteen years of persecution, this Australian citizen is currently imprisoned in the United Kingdom under threat of extradition to the United States, at the behest of a conditioned justice which treats him as if he were a spy or a traitor.
../..
2/x
Beyond the iniquitous fate of the WikiLeaks founder, this procedure turns journalism into a crime and endangers all those who make it their profession, all over the world.
We are journalists, in other words we serve a universally proclaimed fundamental right: the right to know everything that is in the public interest, a right which, in the USA, is protected by the First Amendment to the Constitution. Journalists, says the European Court of Human Rights, are the "watchdogs" of democracy.
3/x
.../...They can disturb, displease and upset, but they are necessary to ensure that the public knows everything that is being done in its name, so that it can make its choices freely, without being blinded by propaganda and lies.
Julian Assange has done nothing other than reveal information of public interest, and in this sense he has acted as a journalist.
4/x
We can attest this especially because we have published this information, we have actively collaborated with #WikiLeaks and, in some cases, we have published investigations signed by Julian Assange. While the whole world has been able to judge the democratic usefulness of his revelations, the proceedings brought against him by the United States of America can only strengthen the authoritarian powers in their repression of independent journalism and the free press.
5/x
We are journalists, diverse in our sensibilities and opinions, but all committed to the same professional ideal: to serve the truth of the facts. This is why, Mr. President, we urge you to put an end to the extradition proceedings against the founder of WikiLeaks. In order to re-establish the truth of which we are the guarantors: before history, #Assange has served journalism.
First signatories: Mediapart, Der Spiegel, Il Fatto Quotidiano, InfoLibre
6/6
For Julian Assange: an appeal launched by Mediapart
Mediapart has launched an appeal for Julian Assange, in the form of an address to the President of the United States of America, Joe Biden.La rédaction de Mediapart (Mediapart)
Thank you. I have sent a meta-appeal to Danish semi-progressive newspaper "Information" who have previously published a lot Wikileaks.
I hope they will sign it, and I would be extremely extremely disappointed if not. But we all know that feeling by now I guess.
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Looking at my Mastodon feed this morning, it seems like everybody loves an updated single board computer.
Well, you're going to love the new #RC2014 Mini II
This little #Z80 based SBC runs BASIC, Z80 ASM and #FORTH. There's even a CP/M upgrade kit available too!
https://z80kits.com/shop/rc2014-mini-ii/
RC2014 Mini II - Z80 Kits
RC2014 Mini II is a Z80 based single board computer that runs BASIC, FORTH, or Z80 Assembly Code and is compatible with the RC2014 ecosystemRFC2795 Ltd
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•Deniz Opal
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