guess i'll finally have to get into rf circuits and tuning (famous last words). also is there any workable foss 3d fem simulation thing that makes sense for playing with ghz antennas and enclosure geometry/materials? or is this a domain exclusive to expensive proprietary software? are these things even solvable purely in simulation with current computers? can someone just do it for me? :D
teilten dies erneut
lukas/lucie "minute" hartmann
Als Antwort auf lukas/lucie "minute" hartmann • • •lukas/lucie "minute" hartmann
Als Antwort auf lukas/lucie "minute" hartmann • • •Janne Moren
Als Antwort auf lukas/lucie "minute" hartmann • • •People at work who do research seem to tend to use COMSOL and similar (or their own code) but that's probably going to be way out of your budget and also probably more than you need.
A quick search does find some freeware, no-cost or oss tools for rf design. Edit: such as OpenEMS: openems.de/
openEMS
openEMSMaciej Małecki
Als Antwort auf Janne Moren • • •panire
YouTubelukas/lucie "minute" hartmann
Als Antwort auf Maciej Małecki • • •benthor
Als Antwort auf lukas/lucie "minute" hartmann • • •AndiS 🌞🍷🇪🇺 mag das.
pff
Als Antwort auf lukas/lucie "minute" hartmann • • •lukas/lucie "minute" hartmann
Als Antwort auf pff • • •pff
Als Antwort auf lukas/lucie "minute" hartmann • • •This would be more like povray for RF. The simulations are slow, and require tons of memory because of the voxel representation, but you get an animation of the the waves propagating through space...
GitHub - NanoComp/meep: free finite-difference time-domain (FDTD) software for electromagnetic simulations
GitHubmorl0ck
Als Antwort auf lukas/lucie "minute" hartmann • • •morl0ck
Als Antwort auf morl0ck • • •lukas/lucie "minute" hartmann
Als Antwort auf morl0ck • • •morl0ck
Als Antwort auf lukas/lucie "minute" hartmann • • •poleguy
Als Antwort auf lukas/lucie "minute" hartmann • • •morl0ck
Als Antwort auf poleguy • • •But yes no need to reinvent the wheel here. Could use a simple wifi antenna with a plastic lid instead of the pcb one to improve reception.
But more fun would be if we could use the mnt logo as an antenna 😁 that's wers the fractal design could come into play.
lukas/lucie "minute" hartmann
Als Antwort auf morl0ck • • •morl0ck
Als Antwort auf lukas/lucie "minute" hartmann • • •lukas/lucie "minute" hartmann
Als Antwort auf morl0ck • • •lukas/lucie "minute" hartmann
Als Antwort auf lukas/lucie "minute" hartmann • • •lukas/lucie "minute" hartmann
Als Antwort auf lukas/lucie "minute" hartmann • • •morl0ck
Als Antwort auf lukas/lucie "minute" hartmann • • •lukas/lucie "minute" hartmann
Als Antwort auf morl0ck • • •mountain
Als Antwort auf lukas/lucie "minute" hartmann • • •@morl0ck So a VNA (I recommend the NanoVNA for a decent cheap/capable openish entry to the space) will more or less tell you if your antenna is “tuned” properly. A demo of this process can be seen here: youtu.be/xa6dqx9udcg
Now a VNA will not show you what the RF does after it leaves the antenna or how well it receives through the case. I’m not sure what the best way to do this is, but you could do rough measurements with a signal analyzer.
- YouTube
youtu.bemorl0ck
Als Antwort auf lukas/lucie "minute" hartmann • • •Select S11 as measurement type and place a marker on 2.4Ghz
Connect the antenna and than place it on the normal backplate and after that (if you have) on a copper free pcb of the same size. The readings for the marker should gibe a clue how big the influece is
lukas/lucie "minute" hartmann
Als Antwort auf morl0ck • • •morl0ck
Als Antwort auf lukas/lucie "minute" hartmann • • •Sidenot on smartphones: the antennas are shit. No space, a dozen of them in a tiny enclosure. They re not really matched or decoupled from ome another so smartphones are not good as a standard to compare to.
poleguy
Als Antwort auf lukas/lucie "minute" hartmann • • •@morl0ck Did you review the application notes from the antenna you are using?
It goes into a lot of detail about efficiency loss with ground planes nearby in different orientations.
It also shows the polar patterns expected from that antenna, to give you an idea of which way it should be oriented.
That antenna is designed to be used far from any metal. Maybe better to go with an antenna that takes advantage of your large ground plane instead?
molex.com/content/dam/molex/mo…
AndiS 🌞🍷🇪🇺
Als Antwort auf lukas/lucie "minute" hartmann • •The farther away you get this antenna from any metal, the better it will work. I've already had some experience with this exact type used in another project (ClockworkPi uConsole).
Its better in your case because it's not directly fixed to the metal but of course you'll always have shielding and reflections from nearby metal objects. In a compact device you have to live with that.
Measuring with a VNA (as mentioned below) will not give you a lot of info. It would tell you how good the antenna works generally (ideally measured as far from any metal as possible). In your enviriment, you already know that the situation is not ideal, so not a lot to gain from measuring it.
A fractal antenna design that could be used for Wifi, Bluetooth and more would be awesome. I have no Idea how to do this though and still consider it Magic
I think the easiest way forward would be to make the copper heatsink asymetricly smaller on the antenna side and to check if there is better (more RF transparent) PCB Material available. These specs should be available. There are certainly better ways, but this is easy and probably worth a try.
@minute @poleguy @morl0ck
mögen das
lukas/lucie "minute" hartmann und morl0ck mögen das.
lukas/lucie "minute" hartmann
Als Antwort auf AndiS 🌞🍷🇪🇺 • • •poleguy
Als Antwort auf lukas/lucie "minute" hartmann • • •@andi @morl0ck
I really think you should scrap the molex antenna as it is designed for mounting far away from a ground plane.
You should move to something like a PIFA antenna, like on the laptop teardown I sent a link to.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted…
I also read the stuff here. I think this is the right idea, although I suspect the radiation pattern needs to be rotated 90 degrees so the null is not shooting out the side of your device:
mastodon.social/@pff/114178717…
Antenna used in wireless communication
Contributors to Wikimedia projects (Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.)pff
2025-03-17 16:29:23
AndiS 🌞🍷🇪🇺
Als Antwort auf poleguy • •poleguy
Als Antwort auf lukas/lucie "minute" hartmann • • •@andi @morl0ck Thought about this some more and did another search through what molex offers: Consider something like this maybe?
molex.com/content/dam/molex/mo…
Then you can have a full copper back plate except one corner. You'd have to mount this on the back plate and feed it with a coax. Maybe worth testing?
AndiS 🌞🍷🇪🇺 mag das.
AndiS 🌞🍷🇪🇺
Als Antwort auf poleguy • •This looks like it's exactly tailored for this application
Also mentioning @minute because Mastodon does not notify you about new thread items if you're not explicitely mentioned.
lukas/lucie "minute" hartmann mag das.
poleguy
Als Antwort auf AndiS 🌞🍷🇪🇺 • • •lukas/lucie "minute" hartmann
Als Antwort auf poleguy • • •poleguy
Als Antwort auf lukas/lucie "minute" hartmann • • •@andi
I do think a PCB etched antenna (PIFA) will be the cheapest and best option.
I recently found this good writeup of a lot of relevant pitfalls:
hackmd.io/oaFVCqXNSZO_LdZHaAnW…
How to (not) ruin your PCB antenna - HackMD
HackMDAndiS 🌞🍷🇪🇺 mag das.
poleguy
Als Antwort auf lukas/lucie "minute" hartmann • • •FR-4 will have a dialectric constant different than plastic...
Gary @N8DMT
Als Antwort auf lukas/lucie "minute" hartmann • • •Free 3D EM modeling and simulation software recommendations are CST (non-commercial-use version) and ELMER. Unfortunately neither are easy to use for newer folks.
There are a few much easier to use tools for lower frequencies. I plan to learn and use MMANA-GAL (free version) for an upcoming #HamChallenge antenna simulation activity. This tool also has helper-apps for matching and other needs.
Have fun in your learning journey. #HamRadio
AndiS 🌞🍷🇪🇺
Als Antwort auf lukas/lucie "minute" hartmann • •We will probably have a *@Metafunk ⚡ talk at @metalab this wednesday evening about antenna simulations. I'm not sure yet but if it happens, it will be streamed too.
It's mostly about sub-Ghz Frequencies but the principles still apply. Ralf, OE3RSA has written some new tool for the purpose (don't know exactly yet. have to see the talk first)
He does a lot of antenna simulation with genetic algorithms - pretty advanced stuff. There are some things to read about it on his website: runtux.com/
@minute
lukas/lucie "minute" hartmann mag das.
Metafunk ⚡ hat dies geteilt.
AndiS 🌞🍷🇪🇺
Als Antwort auf AndiS 🌞🍷🇪🇺 • •Sven
Als Antwort auf lukas/lucie "minute" hartmann • • •Andrew Zonenberg
Als Antwort auf Sven • • •@HeNeArXn I have a Sonnet pro seat including the far field radiation pattern option.
I'm not an expert at designing antennas - far from it - but if you have geometry you want me to try I can simulate it.
The one big limitation is that it's a planar solver which means that you can't model e.g. a parabolic dish, and it can only model radiation normal to the PCB surface (so a patch antenna is fine, but it wouldn't give accurate results for a PCB yagi that fires sideways).
But if you have a simple patch design or PIFA or something you want to tweak I can definitely help with that.
lukas/lucie "minute" hartmann
Als Antwort auf Andrew Zonenberg • • •Andrew Zonenberg
Als Antwort auf lukas/lucie "minute" hartmann • • •